Criptic Critic Conscience and Known for it

Sunday, December 9, 2012

G.A.F 25

Tao Wells Interview with G.bert on Radio One

Interview starts at 1:11:30

Part 6: "Tame was not in Duchamp's vocab" Chat continues with Barry Thomas, Tim Barlow and Mark Amery

  • Barry Thomas Surely the closed circularity of how academics curate academic artists in their academic shows - displays a clear willingness to not look outside. The attitudes and arrogances that come with this closed system makes it increasingly weak and irrelevant. The Adam try - as do letting space - great but they need to work a lot harder to be respectable and honest.
  • Wells Tao There's no need for them to Barry, their audience actually expect less.
  • Barry Thomas I can't remember where I read it now but I was very touched by your description of the year long battle you have both had post bene office. shiiiite man... It seems very clea to me from this and my own experiences that this country has almost no will for art and free thinkers to challenge anything within the status quo. Especially media but also police, courts.
  • Wells Tao Cheer up Baz, just got to accept that there's only one Peter Jackson
  • Tim Barlow To comment on the Tao Wells Tao and Mark Amery interview on Parekowhai, piano thing, Mark is completely wrong about this piece belonging and able to be used by 'us' the owners. When I saw it, and it was being played by different people, ok so thats very nice, but there were two security guards (real ones) continually stopping the public from touching any of it. Therefore only the keys were sanctioned to be touched. i set up a hidden rythmn knocking on the side of the bronze piano, the guards were confused ,didn't know where it was coming from! Ha that was the only fun i could have with this, another one of Parekowhais sad monstrous jokes
  • Wells Tao if Regan Gentry and Michael Parekowhai got together, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart
  • Tim Barlow There is tremendous confusion in art institutions in NZ. Both these artists are commercial artists and should not be represented in public galleries
  • Mark Amery Thanks Tim Barlow. I can't recall what I said in a long talk with Tao but what I do know my main thrust with this work was when I wrote about it was the work's potential was not realised to be touched/shifted around and played in a way that its Te Papa presentation ran against. I don't disagree with your comments - and that the work is ultimately neutered of its political potential. The way art is treated generally in that space is disturbing and very old hat. Tao and I always get into this oppositional conversation about MP, but ultimately there's the sense of something that could be more politically realised, grounded and in touch - and that would be more powerful for it. Where we differ Tim is I don't see MPs work as monstrous jokes - there's a hell of a lot of those around. A Jeff Koon's puppy anyone?
  • Tim Barlow Yes Mark Amery I usually try not to bother on the negatives, and in a way I agree with Sarah Jane Parton there is to much inter artist abuse going on currently, it is destructive and also a product of the competitive elitist system itself. BUT when $1.5m public money spent with no-one being compelled to justify this, things are in a very sad state. Theres not much I agree with Robert Leonard but his assessment of MP as part of a worldwide trend in 'ethno-pop' is spot on. MP (like some others of his generation) attempts to tick all the boxes that will make collectors AND public art curators happy. Hence the strict commodity form, ethnic styles, collaboration and interactivity, post-colonialism. YET it is always on a superficial level, that of layers of potential meaning.This is why I call MP ( and others from the 80's-90's) 'smart art', designed for consumption in the art industry. Give me a 19th cent maori carved gun-stock anyday. Glad you bought up Jeff Koons to, as MP is clearly referencing JK in his 'jokes' on high art
  • Mark Amery Well that trends been around awhile. And of course I agree. That's why we do the Letting Space projects we do. As a critic I'm looking to assess on what levels the work is working (as high end sophisticated smart art for consumption of the art industry - just as I could say the same of many high end indie music groups) but also where it could push further to be really effective in the world out there - so on the latter its great to be pushed to work harder. The discussion like this - be it sometimes rather all over the place like on Fb - encourages this so I'm all for it. The worst thing is to be floating off in your own safe little bubble not being challenged to do better or answer for yourself. A rigorous media would have room for the questions to be asked of MP and for him to actually have right of reply. Sadly that we lack (and of all things that irks me the most).
  • Mark Amery One final thing Tim: I find it very difficult to get angry at artists delivering to what the market wants. This is what most people do. What it means (and I think this was where the conversation with Tao went about MP) however is that those artists aren't what we call gamechangers/change agents - the thing that really marks out the real greats. They might tick boxes of excellence and innovation but only within the existing paradigm - and what most excites me is work that really helps engineer change by not fitting any of those.
  • Tim Barlow I certainly don't get angry at artists delivering to the market, in fact I'm mightily impressed (and probably jealous!) of the way MP can do this. However this doesn't mean I agree with this kind of practice in respect of the ethics of public art institutions (Te Papa). It certainly should be a responsibility of Te Papa to run a rigorous education/debate on why this purchase is significant. There is also a tendency for public art institutions to legitimate themselves as critical, by exhibiting works with a 'soft politics' or that appear to critique their own hallowed halls. I remember the dilemma The Guerilla Girls faced when in recent years they were finally accepted into a MOMA performance program (after years of criticising that and other public institutions). They eventually decided it was better to be heard than remain outside the gallery, yet i would defend GG that they had a long history of genuine activism.
  • Barry Thomas MP... ethno industriart. I made a "Pataka" (food store) of a real Fisher and Paykel Fridge. It utilized the Te Arawa pataka image (pre european I believe) of a couple in a sitting fucking pose - on a food store - amazing idea... that which creates life connects with that which sustains it also... quite tantric! - I carved it in relief, sanded to gloss level - sprayed white then replaced the F and P logo - the work is still extant - It has been exhibited at Pataka and in a private gallery in Auck - it preceded Pataka museum by about ten years). It also "inspired" Ian Wedde to connect art and industry in the infamous Te Papa Parade MacCahon and F and P fridge debacle. I also got Te Arawa carver/ tattooist Okiwi Logan-Shipgood to carve the moko on the faces of the couple. so this was created early nineties... was MP alive then? this early "ethno industriart" completely usurped by Wedde and ignored by Te Paps in the order of two decades before MP piano. So like Letting Space industrialising our 70's interventiart - using free private CBD spaces for urban art - ie. kind of corporatising the management and funding of such healthy art initiatives - we unfortunately see you Mark - with all the power you have in the media - simply and deliberately ignoring these ground breaking, game changing initiatives in every media moment you have... why do you choose to re-write history when you do this?
  • Barry Thomas Oh I also carved the Maori-ised gun butt for Te Wheke's shot gun - plus his whale bone axe handle that beheaded the Volkener missionary character plus one other sperm whale tooth pendant for Geoff's Utu c 1981.
  • Mark Amery Not true Barry I seek them out. If you were doing the work you mention right now or others I'd hope to be the first to be drawing attention to it. Meanwhile I do the Letting Space work not to corporatise or institutionalise or industrialise but because I care about this work happening and helping enable it. It really hurts, actually, to have people turn round after all the sweat we put in because we believe in artists and the projects and see us as somehow part of some insider machine. we're not. I'm not writing on a salary, I'm writing sitting in front of another funding rejection letter (made to try and help others). We just try and make things happen on bugger all that we believe in. As for ignoring you barry - I have mentioned your work on numerous occasions and yet seem to get punished by you for not bringing it continually as if this were some right. You who has been written about by Art New Zealand and now collected by Te Papa! My principle service is to try and help these projects now (or as a critic to write/speak about the projects that are before me) - not be your personal art historian trumpeter. That doesn't mean I don't support your work or won't continue as I have been to keep mentioning it as an important reference point (I pitched an idea for an article to NZ Listener about art and activism a month ago to which reference to your work is pivotal). So lay off those who consider themselves your friends mate! There are far more important things to be doing.
  • Tim Barlow This is what also annoys me, MP's work is not being contextualised within what other artists like Barry have done. This is selective history creation, leave out the difficult stuff! Its not Wells Tao who is trying to rewrite history!
  • Tim Barlow And I agree with Mark. Why Barry try and shoot down Letting Space? if anything they're trying to carry on a public art tradition you were part of creating in NZ. I have witnessed Mark discuss your work publicly on occasions. Theres far more worthy targets for your energy
  • Mark Amery When I wrote about your performance now at the Adam a few months back - not having even seen it, so hoping my errors of fact might be excused - as a preliminary to discussing that Duchamp show it was PRECISELY to ensure game changing initiatives, or ones that operate outside the orthodoxy aren't ignored: had to go against every polite 'behove authority' instinct my parents and school and university indoctrination taught me because to me - not 'the academy' - the action mattered/did something. I knew that in doing so I was putting myself outside those frames of reference you struggle outside - I get that. And you're right that's how it should be all the time for a critic. My hope is I can do it as much as possible (ditto letting Space- the more people call for us to be braver Sophie and I are right there with em trying to urge ourselves along. The older I get and wiser to the nonsense of some things hopefully the more I will and can. If you want to have coffee next week to discuss why your work isn't more recognised Barry or why I or Letting Space don't give you more of a chance there's a queue that stretches a wee way that you can join that leads to a door marked 'we'll try and chat when we're not so damn exhausted from doing stuff'. If however you want to meet for coffee to discuss what we can do to help change things around here in the here and now, I'm in.
  • Barry Thomas Yeowch!!! - ok so you're hurt - now I know that feeling... when NOW you go on - on air on wednesday and trumpet american 70's artists for their work on homelessness and blather on about billy apple and other usual suspects and skirt the b'ar-elephant in the room it hurts. History is not what has happened Mark - it is what is re-told now. To do what you did in your deserved PR thing with Gap filler (unable to even properly say hello to me let alone anything else then speak enthusiastcally on 9 to noon on wednesday about other than wellington artists efforts - mine included simply provincialises, americanises - and aucklandises and as with letting space de-politicises and demeans the art and artists you aim to apparently promote. What I don't think you get is - that without Letting Space and me meeting Giovanni Tiso and albeit begrudging, miniscule refferences you have made to my work - te papa would not have made the one purchase they have made of my art. I am completely honoured by that and having met Tao and connections to this new gen of art and artists through you and sophie's huge efforts. Fact is - we have never had a chat, never met personally because you seem to side with your funders' possible opinions of me as "grumpy bastard" I dunno - you seem compromised by the payers like eye contact and WCC and when in the is it 3 times I have thrown you my ideas of collaboration - a book on the history of urban kiwi interventiart, occupation of somes island by artists etc etc - I just get silence and no...s. Like - I want to build houses and art from recycled car tyres - have done since '98 with Athfield - on a vacant site downtown - wanna play? Look there is a movement of art goin on here - be proud of that - recognise where it has come from, contribute and grow that but do not dishonour fact, truth and real history - it is below where we artists are coming from and what we need. We also need prob bi annual art conferences to coalesce the kinds of divides between art academics as witnessed in this great debate Tao has initiated... to find respectable connections between academics, critics, media, agents, galleries, curators, funders and oh - the guys they all rest on we artists... go on... apply for that Mark - you will be supported and do a great thing for wellyart and nz art. See ya Weds
  • Mark Amery I didnt bring up Billy Apple, Barry, the interviewer did. Please get that straight Caught me on the hop. I wouldn't have. I would have naturally raised David Mealing if I had been true to my notes. Yes, the fact is we have never had a chat as you say, and because of that you make a whole lot of assumptions here from not knowing me Barry (what possibly have I done to make you think I have these "possible opinions" of you as a grumpy bastard - they are not based on the truth! Nor have I ever knowingly ignored you - I just don't know you well enough. At that last talk I wasn't actually quite sure who you were - truth. I guessed). Just because I haven't been able to collaborate doesnt mean i don't respect your work, OK. The art conference is exactly what we need - nice one - and given the energy would be keen to do.
  • Barry Thomas Thanks for that / those comments and tone Mark. And for the/ this record... I did invite you to my demi retrospective 2009 - I think you stayed for about five mins, didn't write it up... You did - following Giovanni Tiso's blog linking my cabbage patch to occupy movement (Oct. 2011) mention me in your Letting space blog - that was kind... belated but kind. I know/ knew nothing about your proposed listener article - what a good thought and as with the Academy's show a couple of years back "Artists as activists" is right on the mark (so to speak). I guess as with Duchamp's rejection by his peers of his re-version of cubism/ Nude one feels hurt by peer rejection. In today speak we all call it othering. That's how I have felt in and around Letting Space - sorry but true. Worse really - and to pull another art history analogy... it's as if I had painted a Mona Lisa and found 35 years later a bunch of people doing cute re-works of it... some better, some worse... and almost daily I am getting such reflections and the real academy has written precisely one document about that - oh and yes very lately Te Papa has made its purchase of one of my works. I don't think I can respect that all your academic training has been in some way breached by talking about my string/ homelessness work - perhaps your conscience has allowed you to only just mention it and not in exactly flattering/ ground breaking tones. And I would hope you will recognise its relevance to Letting Space's auspices... ie. work that challenges real world life with what goes on in galleries. It's very sad that even though it has been perceived as a direct critical attack on the Adam (et al) it could have been accepted as part of the rich Duchamp heritage influence - as no doubt, hopefully, posterity will. Look I do know, recognise and understand the sheer difficulty of managing large collective stuff - I've been there - rADz involved 100 artists two TV stations, competitive selection panels, accountability for $120 CNZ funding. And I have been attacked too for being in the steering seat. It's hard. So well done you two for pulling off what you have - may you keep it up and I am a supporter but radical art needs its head too and it needs critical evaluation. Can you begin to imagine how many times I have had to tell the cabbage patch story - simply because no-one in the media till very lately and in the arts give it its head, connect up the generations, join the dots. Even Jim Barr has steadfastly given precisely 3 lines to it's value in any and all of his his zillion lines of analysis... 3 lines!!!
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    • Mark Amery I don't have lots of academic training Barry, I have a BA. I left and joined the real world and have rarely worked employed actually in galleries either (precisely 2 years). thats why I'm out here. I relish my independence. I wish I could have seen your retrospective more and I wish I had got to write about it. its a regret! But Its tricky. I get lots of regrets like this. My time and resources in town are not very ideal and it has to be put into the context of there being about 30 odd exhibition spaces to cover in wellington and 40-50 reviews in a year. "Regrets I have a few!" Factor the maths together and I don't always get it right. Relying on me as someone who works two and a half days a week on bugger all to do the work of the salaried is just going to lead to dissapointment in terms of critical attention. The media is run in a wretched way barry, and right now while I have young kiddies there's only so much time I have to battle that. In terms of recognising your work under Letting Spaces auspices: it may be a failing (and its certainly an unacademic way of doing things) but when we set up letting Space we didn't look to historical or international context at all. Zero. We didnt look to what had happened in nz before, or whats happening elsewhere. we just did what felt right for the artists and city around us - its all dreadfully uncloaked in the usual academic/public gallery need to look at where it 'fits' in the scheme of things I'm afraid. We really are quite proper art world shoddy in this respect (the opposite often seems to be the problem in artworld trained work - too much context not enough content). The fact that that world has seemed to like what we're doing and respect it surprised us - in that we didn't set out to please it or be part of it really. They came to us mostly. And everytime the cgw or whatever have done so we've actively had to ask what it means to suddenly be in that context. As Letting Space has carried on we have of course become more aware of fitting into a history and context - yours included. but we're not context setters, we're doers. It didnt strike me for a moment that a 20 min show and tell of recent projects would see us need to put our work in the context of what has gone before. That wasn't what we were doing. We just wanted to show people what we'd been up to, as 3/4 of it hadn't been in Wellington. I'd love someone to do that for us - to be put in context. I'd love to have that Art NZ essay that did it, or that university show or that public art book... To me thats the academic and public galleries world job, eh! surely? In fact I immediately feel above my station when I start trying to put our work in context of other great things. And you're so right we (you/us) need critical evalution and context. But one of the sacrifices we make by being outside of the usual game and doing things differently is that we (you/us) are less easy to box/define and evaluate. You're right - we have to keep pushing for it. And as a critic I don't mind being pushed whatsoever - I'll then make my own mind up. You don't have a publicist/marketing department to do it for you. But as someone who gets paid $180 a week to write reviews, and spends 90% of time in Paekakariki where lots of energy is devoted to my community's selfsufficiency (and I know you're very involved in yours) and raising a young family, I think you'd be far better off Barry not considering me as part of some great big industralised academic other that doesn't want to truly acknowledge you, but as just another part of this complex fabric of independents. Flawed but trying, getting used to rejection and not being acknowledged and then occasionally having a triumph. As an on the ground reviewer I might like it/ not get it/have issues with it - thats just the way it is (the work at the adam sounded brilliant but as I say I didnt actually see it so tried to avoid judgement). Personally I am thrilled that your work has been written about in published form and has been accepted into the national collection. at long last. To be honest I have no expectations that letting Space's work will be remembered when its dead and gone - but then maybe I too will come to wish and expect that.
    · November 30 at 10:14pm
  • Tim Barlow Thankgod the tone is getting a bit more understanding! Barry you're only perpetuating systemic failures by blaming it all on Mark AND assuming he's the one who can right past wrongs!. I'm all for some kind of art conference perhaps 'art, activism, social responsibilty and the public sphere IN THE 21st CENTURY'? (or something along these lines). I'd be interested in helping to organise this. One thing that worries me is with the strident opinions this will inevitably bring forward, how do we avoid talks de-generating into like the Wells Tao , Mark Harvey, Enjoy gallery one, where discussion became so generalised any focus was lost (although on this talk I must say, Taos performance of throwing everyone out at the end was intriguing, why did people leave? we should have stayed and resisted this!)
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    • Wells Tao surly it has something to do with respect, I'm the one who has risked taking a stand against this rude institutional fraud, it was my performance, what's the mystery. And I couldn't disagree more about the discussion, it accurately displays the stuck vested interests of some while offering some real solutions from others. All with out your devices of institutional absorption and thus biz as usual. I've drawn a very real line in the sand, one with enormous consequences. Most people I have talked to with out a vested interest in the line of art-academics this criticism applies to have no trouble at all seeing the problem. But here the majority are stuck in a shock like denial. You can disagree that it doesn't exist, but I haven't even got off the introduction yet and Tim Barlow wants to change the issue. ahh Fooey. I 'm taking this issue public. Fuck your games.
    • Tim Barlow I thought you made your point clearly in that talk, re the academic as a failed 'critic and conscience' of society, it was more some of the other speakers who drivelled on like angry young intellectuals. I can't recall any solutions being offerred ,will look back over the vid. The mystery was that many after the talk complained about the act of being thrown out, yet why didn't they just refuse to leave?, cause they're sheep or because you are physically threatening? I'm not to sure, but I was asking myself this. I'm not suggesting institutional absorption, where did I suggest that?, by 'some kind of art conference' maybe its as barry suggested a series of papers that academics can reply to, maybe its just a series of media actions, hey am offering support and interest on this issue or do you want to cut me down now as well?
    • Wells Tao you can make this about you if you'd like, I am more interested in the idea. And I find your inquiries and suggestions off the topic. I have nothing against "angry young intellectuals" in fact I love them... and as for solutions I believe one idea was for Art-academics to turn up and support student protests as if the issues being contested actually affected them. There have been some notable examples of this behavior, inspiring to say the least.
    · December 1 at 7:55am
  • Tim Barlow We would need a focussed format, that somehow avoids personal attack (surely personal attack is off-putting to many people and is very different from dissensus). I believe we need a strong moderator who is sanctioned to 'shut-down' any whinging talking heads. The talks should include public art administrators and art lecturers/curators. Possible discussion points 'Re-writing History and Art Activism' (with Adam Art gallery, Barry Thomas, as invited guests), 'Artistic Autonomy and Activism' (Eugene Hansen, Jakki Newton, Murray Hewitt), 'Activism and Digital media' (ConcernedCitizens, InternetNZ, Kim Dotcom, Bronwyn Holloway-Smith. 'Activism and Entertainment in the Commodity Museum' (Te Papa, Wells Tao, Micheal Parekowhai). Just some ideas to kick things off!
  • Barry Thomas Everyone writes papers and these are collectively published - if not papers then works along the conference theme(s). Q and A's limited in time and facilitated. In my experience they are almost meaningless. Possibly pre-publish papers etc on a dedicated web site so questions can be accurate and relevant. (possibly sent in in advance. Wellington used to have its own arts festival before (as with so many WCC art and other initiatives... it becomes takeover and versions of Jacksonville) it was obliterated by the international festival - leaving local artists on the FRINGES. Combo fest and conference?
  • Tim Barlow I really like these ideas of pre-published papers or outlines, and agree with Q and A failings, so the papers can also invite responses, brilliant! And of course being a conference on activism it must have a series of real art-works/actions associated with it!
  • Barry Thomas Tao - I agree and... but... so... one way forward is simply - as with cabbage patch take/ occupy the middle ground... the centre ground. there is no reason why this discussion you have initiated and had the mana to pull players to cannot thereby lead to a world leading enterprise. Why does art not make a stand collectively for once right here right now - why not have art as a green alternative to fucking dairy et al? LOTR et al... et al et al. and artists run stuff that 1. puts up where the future of art should could go then 2. develop practical political/art initiatives that offer real alternatives to hegmonic and oligarchic systems. I say let's hit the road jack. As you and I have discussed a little previously - we need traction, prob our own version of media, media influence, a respectful historicising process and yes an academic alternative that does not descend into pocket pissing deceits.
  • Barry Thomas Also Tao - I am sure I've said it somewhere else but I titally agree about the conversation - so at least I feel I have had my say and for one - Mark has had the balls to have his. the conference idea is an oldish one I have hhad but this is certainly not about wonership but as ever the Tarkovsian "pressure" builds and finds creative release in new and re-newed ideas - that's good. We can throw apples at academics in the stocks but it won't change them - I say make our own version of what they fail to deliver. I've always said this about rADz - I break (like Mark) my balls for peanuts on CNZ money to do their job for them in my rADz projects... but hey they cannot do what we know needs doin... neither can the academics they are all - always behind our eight ball - that's their position.
  • Wells Tao Barry, been there done that, perhaps your looking to get your 5 mins of institutional fame, but as I've tried to point out the institution has absolutely no ability to engage in these matters.
  • Barry Thomas Sounds like a good idea for a paper to me Tao... right... Has anyone academic written yet about the bene office? other than paid for LS Giovanni? - He said to me by the way - the lasting sadness in researching and writing his piece was that there was such a paucity of intelligent written debate and opinion... So what happens if - other than your Dick film do oral archives of such pieces as bene - interview Gio, you, others publish these as docs as well as utubey film facts
  • Tim Barlow Yeah Tao I don't know if its even possible or desirable to combine art, activism and academia. I agree with this paucity of intelligent debate, and thats where we can combine forces, I have no desire to shift the debate from your observations you have got the guts to put yourself on the line, and bring others in. Remember there is no social change without a social movement!,
  • Wells Tao what? Giovanni wrote about that very point, but to my recollection he was talking about institutional support for exercises in freedom of speech being abscent. In my opinion some of the comment threads on various right wing blogs contain some of the sharpest observations of art and politics I have had the pleasure of reading... this insistence on information sanctioned by credited forms is a lame trap that I have no interest in pursuing. However if the event/papers were aimed at the general public, and that would take some genius, then depending on the details I could be interested. But for all means knock yourself out I do appreciate everyones efforts here...
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    • Barry Thomas interesting ... the great unwashed GP underdog - well I been there mate - four years makin grunty rADz in the poorest estates in UK - but somehow I feel like it needed more... dunno what? more getting them to fight? so easy to feel like one is bein an art wanker makin cute socio buizo art films rather than changin the core dynamics of powerlessness
    · December 1 at 6:00pm
  • Wells Tao I have no interest in leading or partaking in a crusade, there are paid professionals for that.
  • Barry Thomas Come on Tao all your zillion blogs, FB postings and re-Postings ARE YOUR CRUSADE dude
  • Wells Tao maybe to you Barry, but for me it's exercise.
  • Barry Thomas Don't get me wrong I respect your efforts and who and why is the word crusade even on the table. surely we are talkin about changin socio enviro dynamics via art and or art itself along the way - for me the conference idea simply adds one level of clout to coalescing people and thinkers, their diverse opinions into a really BRIGHTER FUTURE rather than a nat party controlled brighter future (much lower case)
  • Wells Tao the talent is just not there, Barry Thomas, soft fat toothless might in contrast make me look fit, but there is no social resisitance. There's the law and that's about it.
  • Tim Barlow I just don't believe you Wells Tao why do you bother with all your efforts if you don't harbor some hope for social improvements. You call it exercise, as if meaning some semantic repression of the fact you DO BELIEVE IN CHANGE. We all know some social/activist art projects that have changed power relationships, admittedly they are rare and the ones I'm thinking of are international. Of course people will (and do) argue that just representation of issues and small symbolic acts can cause gradual change, and I also believe this. Otherwise what? we do nothing? One thing I've noticed with working with some marginalised communities, is that what you say about academics just confirms what they already think, (and art academics are about the bottom of the list of academics with any relevance to them) BUT ideas on creativity are always well received, embraced and desired. Its unfortunely not often that contempoary art can offer this creativity as its so bound up in its own LAW
  • Tim Barlow And by the way this insistence of yours to 'stick to your topic' is just fascist. if theres one thing that makes artists different than lawyers and scientists is the ability to keep changing the paradigm
  • Wells Tao Tim Barlow you have your points,. only nothing new from my perspective. I'd like to be challenged on the merits of the idea, examined with some research having been undertaken by the questioner. I've already descibed why I think that this idea can't get out of the packet. While you started off strong you've already hit the exhaustion wall...
  • Tim Barlow Fair enough, I'll try to research your idea sometime
  • Barry Thomas Ok - I just copied the whole thread... it nearly broke my poor old Imac... 34 pages - not including the many video and other links - what this displays is:
  • Barry Thomas 1. Artists and other art practicioners need to talk... and prob talk more
  • Barry Thomas 2. Need open yet focused forums
  • Barry Thomas 3. Need to publish this stuff in other than ephemeral media... gimmi a hard-on copy!
  • Barry Thomas Totally inspiring coffee X 2 with Tim Barlow - very inspiring... we need a magazine, conference and interventiart stuff/ more.
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    • Tim Barlow Thanks Barry, for inspiring meet up (and shouting the coffs!, generous with that Te PaPa money! ) We need more passionate debaters/activators like you! I'm convinced many young artists are afraid to speak out and be political because of the closed loop of the NZ art world.
    • Barry Thomas All too true but hey - when collegiality is based on power relations and as much of this thread displays - ... all sort of stuff people are obliged to never be allowed to peak about... well the way I see it is - that collegiality/ friendship is simply worth very little.
    • Barry Thomas ... and - if I was an art teacher I would be getting any and all my students to witness and partake in these quality debates rather than hide the way so many others do.
  • Barry Thomas I have just connected that - Mark Amery deigning to only just mention my thread work..."comfort zones" in his Eyecontact review of the pheral rats show and my describing his going against his academic traditions in mentioning it at all - possibly as his act of conscience - brings back the Wells Tao whole argument... academics/universities and certainly the Adam/ academy should act as the "critic and conscience" - so good on you Mark but saying things like "it sounded like a smart move" etc is a backhanded compliment not a serious reflection of considered thinking around... Why did I choose to do it? what is it about MD that changed art forever? anti institutional art? Humour? Let alone the plethora of influence of MD through to the likes of Letting space, cabbage patch et al. Let alone the selection procedures of pheral rats - a litany of very usual (tame) suspects. Again the academy is not historicising honestly and thoroughly. Tame was not in Duchamp's vocab.
    Like · Reply · December 3 at 8:36am
    Barry Thomas Tao - regarding your comment on "The law" - what are you/ what do you want to do in and around this? take the university to court? why not ?- call it a work of art litigation. Write some new laws - also as works of art?