Criptic Critic Conscience and Known for it

Friday, September 26, 2014

I felt that it appealed to me as a man, and a feminist to come a little more out of the closet. To try and articulate what that may look like. Part 1


YAY
Feminism isn't a "woman's issue"; it's everyone's issue.
Read the full text of Emma Watson's UN speech on gender equality here: http://www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2014/9/emma-watson-gender-equality-is-your-issue-too
Via Our Time
  • Jarad Bryant Its like the word Masculinism... would that be a popular word? Why is it not a popular word?...If masculanism was used as a vehicle for creating social, political gender equality would that be seen as good?...When we think of "Man".. do we think good things? There is a perception in society that women are good and men are bad. Women are clean and men are dirty... (stats show the opposite in the cleanliness records of public toilets) After all we supposedly live in a "Patriarchy"... and women are so disadvantaged by it ... and the only reason women do bad things is because of men... and if something happens to women it is never their responsibility... odd how these messages have been used to supposedly create equality. Call yourself what ever you want. But we cant pretend that feminism is about creating equality as it usually does not advocate for men. Humanism or something could be a balance point. There are obvious and valid reasons why feminism has got a bad name... the principle itself is of course useful, but the principle takes a back seat when it comes to activism. We also have no checks and balances... there is no recognition of what the inequality was in the first place or how that was gauged... just a random push for certain reforms... ad hock shambles to create equality... and as I have pointed out mens and boys education, health, needs and rights are lacking
    Like · Reply · 2 · 12 hrs
    • Catherine Cocker but men are dirty jarad ............
      Like · 1 · 10 hrs
    • Ryan Fouhy Well said man.
    • Catherine Cocker you do understand jarad that this is how right wing white power movements began , its the same impulse......poor me kind of impulse....i do not define myself as a feminist because i dont think there should be an argument about whether or not there should be pay equity, and of course if someone wants to be a house wife (or husband or whatever) it should be by choice not forced, like a1950s rerun.AND it should be considered a valid choice.... mainly though jarad it was women that fought to have rights, there were men involved but mainly it was women looking after women , do you not feel men look after each other enough? because i have seen men looking after each other , there are whole groups of men looking after each other, free masons, rotary, every old boys network in the country which would seem to be pretty strong at the moment, i would bet my life john key is part of one
      Like · 1 hr

      • Jarad Bryant Catherine, Yes and women look after each other also in their own circles...its not like women where forbidden to congregate!. you know that many young men marched into battle without the right to vote whilst women marched for their right to vote.... men dying for their country and women and children... without the right to vote... in fact only land owners etc had the right to vote... Men are the victims of the system too. How did the war deaths of millions of men get ignored in the concept of equality? In the civil war men had to agree to die for the state to get the right to vote... it wasnt a privilege without a cost.. The women in my family are very strong willed people... my grandmother who is 93 had her own business and her mother had her own business...that goes back a long way... My Grandmother said she has never felt disadvantaged being a women... she did what she wanted,,, if women where so oppressed how is this possible? I see weak willed men all over the place (and women hate it!) and aggressive strong willed women... Women have their own agency and power ... why is feminism so obsessed with wanting equality in an economic system etc invented by men... why not start a new system?... Why complain about a stupid system and demand rights in it?... A system women benefit from...
        Like · 1 · 19 mins
      • Ryan Fouhy good except *A system EVERYONE would benefit from
      • Wells Tao so you want woman to invent their own system that isn't capitalism. Jarad Bryant, as I suspected your issue isn't with feminism it is with capitalism. Divide and conquor capitalism. And to that we are all fucked
      • Jarad Bryant Ryan I was meaning women benefit from the supposed "patriarchy" as it is.
        Like · 1 · 14 mins
      • Wells Tao And as for your grandmother, that is great that she felt that way. But how rare is that experience?
      • Wells Tao there are always noble exceptions to every rule

      • so you want woman to invent their own system that isn't capitalism. Jarad Bryant, as I suspected your issue isn't with feminism it is with capitalism. Divide and conquor capitalism. And to that we are all fucked
      • Jarad Bryant Ryan I was meaning women benefit from the supposed "patriarchy" as it is... that if they dont like it they could create a new system etc
        Like · 1 · 55 mins · Edited
      • Wells Tao And as for your grandmother, that is great that she felt that way. But how rare is that experience?
      • Wells Tao there are always noble exceptions to every rule
      • Wells Tao There is an important idea for me that I read in "Iron John", about Patriarchy, that we don't really have it. That Patriarchy like Matriarchy are potentially healthy things, where the 'king' or 'queen' in their use of power is able to care for the 'other' by challenging their lusts for more power and accepting errors when made. The fact that as a man, if I look up the hierarchy and can not see this "Sun king', but instead see its Poisoned equivalent of both genders makes me feel that this term Patriarchy is miss used to indicate the success of men's relations in being unsuccessful, un-patriarchal.
      • Jarad Bryant Detective Wells... what i am saying is our system was built by women and men as a collaboration... men invented the washing machine... women didnt complain about it... it saved women time and their backs... why would men work to make home life better for women if they are trying to oppress them? ... Men dropped the bombs women made them... etc etc... It was a team effort... and it worked well sometimes... it worked so well it built the foundations of what we have .. How was this collaboration respected and factored into creating equality? Women actively perused their positions with power... not just as "victims". Men may earn more money in a household but women spend 80% of it. Women moving into the workforce created more tax revenue... but are we better off as a society?... Children not seeing their parents etc...everyone stressed out... If a woman owns a company, and wants to employ only male workers, why shouldn't she? Its her company... Why should their be a 50 50 split in parliament...? The best people for the job should be the criteria not gender.... the problem with activism is it has a naivete. When a holistic perspective if attempted it does not fit with the fight. An example of this is Erin Pizzy she joined the feminists but when she questioned their theory she was kicked out... She suggests that feminism was the rebranding of aggressive radical marxism.. she is the woman that set up the first homes for battered women in the UK... and she realised early on that women not only perpetuate and use violence they actually may initiate and choose violent relationships. .. she revealed this and was attacked by feminists... Women must be victims of an oppressor for the narrative to work... women are not victims... they have their own agency.
      • Wells Tao that's your theory right? I don't think much of what you've just said would hold up under much analysis. Can you make your points smaller, It is difficult to refute such long comments, rambling can be a way of shouting down opposition, in a similar way to raising your voice or being aggressive. There are too many points that you are joining together to make your arguments that need thorough engagement, and not to be swept over as if they were merely facts.
  • Wells Tao Jarad Bryant, your welcome to your opinion. But for my money you are defending something by attacking woman, and that doesn't need to happen. Yes be pro men, there is a lot that needs to be done. But in my opinion you don't need to make that point by attacking woman.
    Like · Reply · 2 · 11 hrs
  • Wells Tao Oh and why isn't the word Masculinism popular, because that would be drawing attention to the way in which almost everything is done around here. And power is at it's best when it is unseen.
    Like · Reply · 2 · 11 hrs
  • Wells Tao So PLEASE go and popularize Masculinism
    Like · Reply · 1 · 11 hrs
  • Jarad Bryant Cheers Tao ... Exactly where have I attacked women? Where am I defending anything? I am discussing the issues.
    Like · Reply · 1 · 11 hrs
  • Wells Tao "But we cant pretend that feminism is about creating equality as it usually does not advocate for men."
  • Wells Tao "There are obvious and valid reasons why feminism has got a bad name..."
    Like · Reply · 1 · 11 hrs
    • Jarad Bryant Yes, thats why she is making the statement, but she is not actually addressing the issues why... she simply jumps to the idealism
      Like · 1 · 11 hrs
    • Wells Tao um, no she is addressing the idea with other ideas
    • Jarad Bryant yeah the idealised ideas that have actually backfired... I am not attacking... I am identifying the issue. I am not saying feminism has not done good... but it has little accountability
      Like · 1 · 11 hrs
    • Wells Tao
  • Jarad Bryant I am talking about masculinism as an equal definition to feminism... advocating for equality... not the common idea that masculinity is inherently bad.
  • Wells Tao "just a random push for certain reforms... ad hock shambles to create equality.."
  • Wells Tao What feminist writers or activists have you read or listened to?
    • Jarad Bryant numerous... yes ad hock... the call was that there was inequality due to the patriarchy... not addressing how women benefit from the patriarchy and even manifest it actively...and how this co-creation must offer some balance to the "oppression".
    • Wells Tao name one
      Like · 1 · 11 hrs
    • Jarad Bryant Harriet Herman
    • Wells Tao never heard of her
    • Jarad Bryant she is the UK minister for families, she suggested in her 1994 paper that the role of fathers cannot be assumed necessary to family and social cohesion. The type of idea that leads our government policy and family court mandates
    • Wells Tao that's the core of your argument right. Cause if it is, for my money your beef is not with feminism, but with mens mental health.
    • Jarad Bryant To not acknowledge the effect that feminist ideology has had is why feminism has got a bad name... it cannot be holistic... by its very nature it is feminism. .. it cannot bring around "equality".. that is not an attack... it is an observation... I welcome and appreciate feminist theory and efforts to enlighten etc
    • Jarad Bryant When courts disadvantage fathers and show preferential treatment for women for the same crime,,, it is more than mens mental health
    • Wells Tao If anything, my studying of feminism, and for the most part it's been theorists and activists has helped me enormously to become a better man. Less self hate, less violence. Cause I've learned about myself from anothers point of view. Learned how I behave.
      Like · 1 · 11 hrs
    • Wells Tao There are reasons why kids aren't allowed to sit next to men alone on planes, and those reasons suck, but they are not womans fault. It's our own.
    • Jarad Bryant I have done the same... however there is another side to the coin... one that sees men
    • Wells Tao Really? Because you don't sound like you have learnt how woman see things. You really really don't.
    • Jarad Bryant oh actually that was back in the 80's when there was a knee jerk reaction that saw a mythological attack on kindigarden workers that saw the demise of male role models and teachers... far more than just men deserving demonisation... it was a witch hunt in the media... it was very sad... essentially an ad hock attack on masculinity... not criminal behavior
    • Jarad Bryant I have seen how women see things and its not always pretty Tao... I dont need to feather any nests... I call women out on inappropriate behavior as I do men. Women are as abusive and destructive as men....
    • Wells Tao That is simply not the point Jarad. To avoid grinding an axe over your own relationship issues, it is important to see things in a broader context. Reading actual feminist theory, and knowing something about what you are proclaiming to know about in my experience can make a marked difference. Your arguments if you don't mind me saying so, are confused and confusing. It is like you are so angry you are lashing out instead of understanding what it is you are actually angry about. I can relate to that, But it needs a different solution.
    • Desi Liversage Actually, Harriet Herman, a Labour lite mp said that in 1990. In 2008, she followed up by saying: "no ideal type of household in which to bring up children". You must stay up to date Jarad.
      Like · 2 hrs

      • Desi Liversage Actually, Harriet Herman, a Labour lite mp said that in 1990. In 2008, she followed up by saying: "no ideal type of household in which to bring up children". You must stay up to date Jarad.
      • Jarad Bryant She updated it... ha... thats 8 years of policy intrenchment... you think that 8 years had no effect on the disenfranchisement of fathers and didnt effect family court rulings.... did her follow up statement undo the damage that had been done... ? It decimated fathers. You must think laterally Desi.. not that I think you should think anything!!!... I am just reflecting your demand of what you think I should think... Harriet Hermans statement is not lessened by her retraction...
      • Wells Tao Men need to change for these laws to change, Jarad Bryant, they are reactions, bad ones I agree to perceptions of those outcomes we are debating the important details of. Changing a law, with out changing the men who are stuck in a system that promotes their own destruction is not going to help. Feminism when it's sharp is one of the tools men need to use to get to grips with their own behavior, to hear, listen to how their behavior effects others (men too) and start learning.
      • Wells Tao It's a tough call. But you seem interested.
  • Jean E Loomis One of the things that really bothered me when I lived in the US was a subtle brainwashing of how you were supposed to act as a female. It ranged from your tone of voice, clothes, way you walked, attitude etc. Mind you I was living in the midwest at this stage - you would see young girls all acting the same. I think current anti feminism is a result of a conservative backlash as a way to maintain power and control - to fit in with the system.
    Unlike · Reply · 2 · 5 hrs
    • Desi Liversage That is alive and well here too
      Like · 1 · 3 hrs
    • David Small It sure is. For every two steps forward in addressing these ingrained structural injustices, there emerges a backlash that dismisses any progress as "political correctness" and sets things back about five steps. The anti-feminist backlash is in full swing in NZ (as you can see from this thread) and runs alongside an anti-Maori backlash as well. Last week's election result is likely to give these forces even greater swag.
      Like · 2 hrs

      • Jarad Bryant What you could potentially do is to research the issue... it seams you are not familiar with the issues involved. This is not about a "backlash" its about a balanced reasonable review of social paradigms... Sure there are moves like you are suggesting but they are not what I am suggesting... I am looking at the reasonable and responsible addressing of both mens and womens needs. Rather than seeing women as some different spices that need to be given a hand up and men as a privileged oppressor or something... What is strange is that such a review is labeled as a "way to maintain power and control" rather than a way to address issues of bias and favoritism. Or the needs of men are being neglected or even penalised. Why would giving women the "victim status" not afford them power and control?... Please explain why we as a society generally view women as victims and men as perpetrators... I really encourage you to look into that without your preconceived conceptual framework to guide you. The research clearly shows women use violence and intimidation equally to men... it may not have the same outcomes, but the problem is no less of a problem..
      • Wells Tao "The research clearly shows women use violence and intimidation equally to men" reference please Jarad Bryant
      • Wells Tao "why we as a society generally view women as victims and men as perpetrators..." this is confused thinking Jarad. You are collapsing two different though related arguments into one.
      • Wells Tao The roles of victim, persecutor and rescuer, while shared evenly, in practice in my experience have habits influenced by society and cultural education.
      • Wells Tao It is up to us individually to educate ourselves about our participation in this "drama triangle" and seek it's solution. being open to being vulnerable, Assertiveness and listening, respectively.
      • Wells Tao The outcome of these roles being played successfully or badly is very important. Outcomes are what we live in. A critique of men's behavior is a good thing. I want to learn the more accurate the info the better. It starts with myself Jarad Bryant, I can't go around saying "woman/ society views them as victims" as that isn't what I know.
      • David Small If any of the "please explain" was directed at me Jarad, I should tell you that I have far less patience than Tao. Unless you're younger than about 16, I would no more try to convince you of the merits of feminism than try to convince ACT of the merits of unionism, or Dick Cheyney of the merits of peace, or the National Front of the merits of immigration.

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