Criptic Critic Conscience and Known for it

Friday, September 26, 2014

I felt that it appealed to me as a man, and a feminist to come a little more out of the closet. To try and articulate what that may look like. Part 2

  • Wells Tao
  • Ryan Fouhy whatever. It’s also the reason that ‘We don’t often talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes’, because every time ‘we’ do, it’s not really about men themselves, it’s about their impact on women.
    • Wells Tao Um, feel free to talk about men being imprisoned by gender stereotypes Ryan Fouhy, can you do it from your own perspective?
    • Ryan Fouhy Easily. Im not even going to try.
    • Ryan Fouhy Man up right? Guess ive got a small penis then...
    • Wells Tao no, it would help me to hear what you are saying if you say it from your own experience and not someone elses.
    • Ryan Fouhy Im on my phone so ill make it easy for you. Take every single womens problem and reverse it to men. Women have gender stereotypes just as men do. So why perpetuate that women have it so much worse at the hands of men?
    • Wells Tao Ryan I'll ask you the same question I asked Jarad, have you read any feminist theory or watched any material? Name one.
      Like · 1 · 4 hrs
    • Ryan Fouhy Oh ffs...
    • Wells Tao I could do with out the anger directed at me Ryan, I'm trying to have a conversation with you.
    • Ryan Fouhy How am i directing anger at you? lol
    • Chloe Ann King There is a great book by Carlos Andres Gomez called "man up: reimagining manhood" that is really excellent in relation to toxic masculinity if you are interested Ryan.
    • Ryan Fouhy Academic feminism has the resources and therefore the potential to teach students the real history of the WLM, but it can’t do so if it replaces that history with its own self-serving ivory tower theories that have no relationship to the lives of most women and give a distorted reinterpretation of the real and exciting history of women’s struggle for freedom and equality.

      If academic feminism doesn’t become an ally of the Women’s Liberation Movement instead of trying to replace it, the day will come soon when Women’s Studies is so irrelevant that it will disappear.
      Unlike · 1 · 3 hrs
    • Wells Tao yep, there a a lot of different sides within an argument.
    • Ryan Fouhy Feminism is Another Form of Segregation In my most humble opinion, I view "feminism" as another form of segregation within out society. It creates division by throwing pity on a group who some people from society has deemed to be the "weaker" class. Racism, sexism, feminism, and all the other isms has done nothing, but to further pull people apart from each other. From what I see, feminism is actually doing the complete opposite of what it intends to do. Most feminists will argue in favor of passing laws in order to get their way. However I feel that this method will only result in more division and separation. Thus, never really accomplishing relatively anything. Granted in the end some people may get their way, but they will never change the mind nor the hearts of others'.
    • Wells Tao that reads really confused to me Ryan. Racism and sexism is calling out absues of power, so too is feminism. To me you sound angry about the state of mens mental health. an issue I also am concerened with. But you seem to equate that to the existence of feminism, which for my money has also been concerned with mens mental health.
    • Ryan Fouhy When a man has a problem, he is expected to take care of it himself or suffer in silence. When a woman has a problem, it’s everyone’s responsibility to put it right. Feminists have so exploited this that virtually everyone now agrees that a woman who feels uncomfortable at the way a man looks at her is oppressed
    • Wells Tao you are repeating the problem
    • Wells Tao by striking out in ignorance against something that is actually trying to help you, that compounds silence.
    • Ryan Fouhy Bottom line is: If feminism was truly about equal rights for both genders it wouldnt have FEM in the title and we would be seeing campaigns like the current Emma Watson headed one telling us that 'Feminism is for women and men, by making men admit they are the problem'. HE FOR SHE. This is my gripe with feminism. It proclaims to be about equality, but only equality of one side. And that just doesnt make any sense does it?
    • Wells Tao So you don't recognize the advantages that men have in out society? You only see the disadvantages man have? How is this not one sided? Feminism at its best can articulate where men have work to do, and that is also what you want, for men to get on with bettering themselves.
      Like · 1 · 3 hrs
    • Ryan Fouhy Men have disadvantages just as women have disadvantages. Most people have disadvantages. Also most people have benefits. Its not just men that need to 'better themselves' and feminism does not support that.
    • Wells Tao It supports me
    • Wells Tao When you say feminism, can you narrow that down to actual people for me? I think it would help to see where you are getting your ideas from.
    • Ryan Fouhy Feminism isnt people, its an ideal. Its the ideal that strives to reach equality by focusing on womens rights. NOT EVERYONES RIGHTS.
    • Ryan Fouhy A sharper perspective on this matter is particularly important to feminist
      thought today, because a major tendency in feminism has constructed the
      problem of domination as a drama of female vulnerability victimized by male
      aggression. Even the more sophisticated feminist thinkers frequently shy
      away from the analysis of submission, for fear that in admitting woman’s
      participation in the relationship of domination, the onus of responsibility
      will appear to shift from men to women, and the moral victory from women to
      men. More generally, this has been a weakness of radical politics: to
      idealize the oppressed, as if their politics and culture were untouched by
      the system of domination, as if people did not participate in their own
      submission. To reduce domination to a simple relation of doer and done-to
      is to substitute moral outrage for analysis.
      — Jessica Benjamin, “The Bonds of Love”
    • Wells Tao how do you focus on Mens rights if you are only allowed to focus on EVERYONES RIGHTS
    • Ryan Fouhy exactly!
    • Wells Tao exactly?
    • Wells Tao I was asking you
    • Wells Tao you said that you disagreed with feminsim because it focuses only on one side of the argument ( I don't agree), how can you focus on Mens issues if you can't focus on just one side of the argument?
    • Ryan Fouhy Umm by focusing on both genders?? THINK ABOUT IT. Wome have a problem, instead of thinking 'how can men fix this' it should be 'how can WE fix this' and vice versa.
    • Wells Tao "Men—I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue too.

      Because to date, I’ve seen my father’s role as a parent being valued less by society despite my needing his presence as a child as much as my mother’s."
      - See more at: http://www.unwomen.org/.../emma-watson-gender-equality-is...


      Speech by UN Women Goodwill Ambassador Emma Watson at a special event for the HeForShe campaign, United Nations Headquarters, New...
      unwomen.org
    • Wells Tao that's exactly what I see her trying to do.
    • Ryan Fouhy http://eldritchedain.wordpress.com/.../an-open-letter-to.../
      Dear Ms Watson, I read with interest your formal invitation...
      eldritchedain.wordpress.com
    • Wells Tao those are some pretty childish responses
      Like · 1 · 3 hrs
    • Ryan Fouhy yeah but do you understand the problem?
    • Ryan Fouhy Theres feminism. And theres equal rights.
    • Wells Tao in my opinion. That article while making many good points, makes the same assumptions that you are making. Seeing an enemy instead of an Allie .
    • Ryan Fouhy Because in its current form it is detrimental to us. It IS an enemy. http://youtu.be/cqOTj9NDv80

      Christina Hoff Sommers discusses the war against boys,...
      youtube.com
    • Wells Tao equality I think is perhaps a more complex idea that you or I take for granted. You have an idea of what that is. I have another. The theorist you mentioned before Jessica Benjamin, in the short wiki reading i just did, she seems to actually be critical of the conclusions that you are drawing.

      "In The Bonds of Love: Psychoanalysis, Feminism and the Problem of Domination (1988) Benjamin explores why we accept and perpetuate relationships of domination and submission. She theorizes that domination is a complex psychological process which ensnares both parties in bonds of complicity, and supports this by showing how it affects our family life, our social institutions, and especially our sexual relations, in spite of our conscious commitment to equality and freedom.[4]"

      "Ensnares both parties" how's that equality for you!
    • Ryan Fouhy 1988 yawn
    • Ryan Fouhy Keep it current please
    • Wells Tao what history has no relevance?
    • Ryan Fouhy It does but we are talking about the ideal CURRENTLY
    • Wells Tao shit bro, i'd like to dismiss a lot of things with that kind of logic, but man I 'd be serioulsy delusional
    • Wells Tao I was quoting from the book you quoted from earlier
    • Wells Tao which now appears like you haven't actually read, just picked out the bits that support your preconception. Not the best way to read in my book...
    • Ryan Fouhy Would you look at that...
    • Wells Tao
  • Ryan Fouhy Bla bla bla equality then #heforshe wap wap waaaap #heandshe
  • Wells Tao Jarad Bryant, Ryan Fouhy, I highly recommend a book that I've read that is really good on these matters. It's called "Stiffed, Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man, by well known feminist Susan Faludi. Seriously good info, about men.
  • Chloe Ann King eh her Un speech was not reallyso great. She pushes consumer feminism as her brand which talks only to white middle class women and does not include trans or black women. And in her speech she pandered mainly to men barely spoke about violence against women and although its cool she has taken a stand, she might have done more damage than good. She offered up a really watered down brand of feminism and yeah that shit aint ganna change much.
    Unlike · Reply · 5 · 3 hrs
  • Chloe Ann King I guess I just aint down for her type of feminism which is coded in racism and really puts MEN at the centre of it. WTF Emma? ahhhh
    Unlike · Reply · 3 · 3 hrs
  • Wells Tao Ah sweet, to be honest I didn't read the fine print, i.e the content. as I was celebrating the broad strokes made by a young woman who works in a meat factory. I really should read everything I post and defend, but then i have other agnenda.
    • Ryan Fouhy *vagenda
    • Chloe Ann King all good I just didnt rate the speech much but each to there own without a doubt.
    • David Small Me neither. But that's a discussion that is best held in the absence of people who aren't actively promoting the anti-feminist backlash.
    • Wells Tao
  • Wells Tao ok reading it now, i see what you mean by the border line racism, there are some great lines though, "Men—I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue too.

    Because to date, I’ve seen my father’s role as a parent being valued less by society despite my needing his presence as a child as much as my mother’s."
    • Chloe Ann King yeah but Emma pretty much made it a feminist responsibility to get men involved. It really isnt.
    • Wells Tao I agree there.
    • Wells Tao but in a way I felt that it appealed to me as a man, and a feminist to come a little more out of the closet. To try and articulate what that may look like.
      Unlike · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Chloe Ann King And she focused on the pain and suffering of men, barely speaking of the violence women face or pointing out these negative stereotypes of masculinity are a result OF patriachy and intersect with violence against women. It was a major fail of a speech. But thats my opinion and my point of view.
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs · Edited
    • Chloe Ann King watered down feminism is not going to dismantle patriachy and asking "nicely" like Emma did that men get involved is not ganna get us very far. And pulling the "you should care about your mothers, sisters..." line further pushes the idea that women ONLY have worth because of their relationships to men.
    • Wells Tao I take feminism in many shades hues, economic brackets and densities. I don't think there is a one solution to all problems. I think it is a relationship issue, one to the self, one to others. And it is a complex area full of explosive traps that are more about our own personal mental states than larger social or ecnomic systems.
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Chloe Ann King Id say what I am talking about though is not really part of my mental state Bell Hooks has constantly pointed out the hypocrisy of white womens feminism (what Emma is pushing) and Laurie Penny talks about the damage the type of feminism Emma is pushing in her latest book "Unspeakble Things". Feminism that is at the expense of black, poor and trans women is not ok in my books.
    • Wells Tao in general my moto with feminism is helping myself to be a better man.
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Chloe Ann King all good and I appreciate your point of view and I do see where you are coming from. I guess I just do not dig consumer feminism, for the reasons I pointed out above. xx
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Wells Tao I don't like it either. but I don't want to cut it off as the tip of an attached tentacle to something greater.
    • Chloe Ann King As much as this speech appeared to open up dialogue Emma has closed it down greatly as well. Its just shiny pink fluffy feminism that is palatable for the masses. Not time for that shit.
    • Wells Tao I was once drawn a map, a picture of this octopus thing by an old activist radical at a radical activist workshop (I KNOW i was so lucky). At one end of the tentacle you would have your radical terrorists, a little further in you would meet the translators, then a little further in the disemenators, and then finally you'd get to the mythical main stream the body of the beast. I imagine that this series of links is going on in all cultures, in all their different hues and densities. I feel it is a good step to not cut off one tentacle to make another feel better, or over issues of purity, or 'realness' but see how they can relate and strengthen each other.
    • Wells Tao I was being a little flippant when I wrote terrorist, I meant activist.
    • Wells Tao
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys Ryan ya shits wack yo.

    That would be like saying post-colonial movements should focus on everyone's rights not the rights of said indigenous group
    Like · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Ryan Fouhy But they should!! EQUALITY!
    • Ryan Fouhy Why focus on one lot of people, what about the rest?
    • Wells Tao but you have repeatedly said that you want to focus exclusively on men!
    • Wells Tao WHICH I SUPPORT
    • Ryan Fouhy Ive NEVER said i want to focus exclusively on men, wtf? Ive always only ever said focus on EVERYONE, why would i fucking argue against focusing only on women but then say only focus on men, that defeats the whole fucking point doesnt it!!! Why do i even bother...
    • Wells Tao sorry Ryan, I thought you were. I certainly am.
    • Ryan Fouhy Im a humanist, an egalitarian, i am not a feminist or an MRA.
    • Wells Tao Funding for mens mental health is nil to non existent. 70% of general prision pop has been sexually molested as children.. etc etc.. I think you are angry at the system, captialism. Which we all have in common as soemthing that oppresses, and you instead off load on feminsim.
    • Chloe Ann King thats not true Wells my mum works in mental health the public funding to mental health is general not gender specific
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Chloe Ann King both men and women in the public health system have access to the same kinds of help and support.
      Like · 1 · 2 hrs
    • Wells Tao yes.
    • Wells Tao Same access, but men don't access health services in a way that currently helps them.
    • Chloe Ann King and as for the focus being on everyone overwelming the focus is on white middle class men who almost always dominant every facet of life.
      Unlike · 2 · 2 hrs
    • Wells Tao the stats often compare woman usage to mens, but I don't think the comparison points out the issue that it's not about who gets to use it more. It's about adjusting what isn't working to make it work better.
    • Chloe Ann King nah do wome? The mental health system is underfunded and under staffed. Men often dont ask for help because of the negative steretypes of masculinity: never show emotions - empathy, compassion... show no fear ect. It is up to men to disrupt these negative stereorypes seeing as it is overwelmingly feminists who have pointed them out.
      Unlike · 2 · 2 hrs · Edited
    • Chloe Ann King Its up to men to creat emore maps to manhood and it is up to men to start challenging toxic masculinity. Afterall they are in the best position to they know what it feels like to be chocked by the impossible to reach bar of masculinity.
    • Wells Tao yep, well into it
    • Wells Tao thanks
    • Wells Tao the mental health industry is a tricky tricky beast
    • Chloe Ann King its broken as fuck.
      Unlike · 2 · 2 hrs
    • Wells Tao I recommend this as a good source for inspiration, particularly with it's conceptions of Patriarchy and Matriarchy as "shining kings and queens". A quality distinctly missing in men's kings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men
    • Wells Tao
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys Maybe pop feminism has its place ... Like that Russell brands pop socialism... Hmmmm

    I'm not sure but maybe
    Unlike · Reply · 2 · 2 hrs
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys I suppose the question of "consumer feminism" and its relevance is tied into whether or not you see capitalism as inherently patriarchal or not... I.E can feminism ultimately be realized under capitalism or are patriarchy and capitalism intertwined on a basic level etc...
    Unlike · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys I'm a nihilist I am equally disinterested in the non essence of all individuals. Its very egalitarian
    Like · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys Radical de subjectivization
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys White men in collared shirts
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys Unless you live in Asia etc
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys I confess i have ocd and sometimes I wear woman's clothes
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys I felt quite liberated the first time I realised I could be a bit camp and have fun with chainsaws...
    Unlike · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys I suppose there's two facets in this sense for men - one how to acknowledge and relate to women and their interests etc... And two how to subjectivize in a way that deconstructs toxic masculinity etc
    Unlike · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs
  • Wells Tao and how to articulate the common oppressor shared between.. capitalism.
  • Wells Tao "I’ve seen young men suffering from mental illness unable to ask for help for fear it would make them look less “macho”—in fact in the UK suicide is the biggest killer of men between 20-49 years of age; eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I’ve seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don’t have the benefits of equality either. "
    - See more at: http://www.unwomen.org/.../emma-watson-gender-equality-is...


    Speech by UN Women Goodwill Ambassador Emma Watson at a special event for the HeForShe campaign, United Nations Headquarters, New...
    unwomen.org
  • Richard Benjamin Solomon Keys The tricky thing here as a socialist is not to subsume (thats a Marxist pun FYI) feminism issues of oppression under socialist issues of class, capital etc...

    Can socialism provide a matrix whereby various forms oppressions and alienation, i.e class, gender, ethnicity can come together into a more potent emancipatory movement than those struggles alone... but without one over-coding the other...??
    Unlike · Reply · 1 · 1 hr
    • Wells Tao YES, that is it.
      Like · Just now

      • Desi Liversage The opposite is also true - that white middle class women should not subsume class, race and capital issues under feminist issues.
      • Wells Tao Right unless you specify that you are talking about the simulacra of Feminism, which is what I think she is doing. There is a measure of self reflectiveness on her privileged position, there's a nod to her own limitations, and a direct appeal to men like me to step up. I like that.
        Like · 1 · 21 mins
      • Desi Liversage In days of old (the seventies), in South Africa, we spoke of of liberal, socialist and radical feminism. Number one was the middle and upper class way, number three was the no penetration, womyn way. I based myself in number two, which meant an eternal squabble with far too many many men in the struggle industry. But then that was another era, another country and an utterly different framework. Perhaps they were all simulacra. Actually, the whole of fucking likfe in one big simulacrum
      • Wells Tao yeah I like to think i travel back and forth along that structure depending on context and goal. It's my form (that I am trying to promote), of taking my race and gender privilege to a more noble form, a more accessible norm, be all three! I may be delusional, it is an experiment. But again why I liked Emma Watsons call out.

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